[Interview] Lens on law: “Sometimes I get hyper-focused and end up talking about drones with my mom or even during a date”

Can art make international and European law more accessible to the public? An innovative project by the Asser Institute and the Royal Academy of Art The Hague (KABK) explores this question through the lens of photography. For three months, 4th year Photography students of the KABK are collaborating with international law researchers to deliver a visual narrative of international law’s role in society, culminating in a public exhibition. We interviewed the talented students Salome Erni, Daria Radu and Anastasia T.. “I think that art can be a great facilitator for the translation of law into something everyone can relate to.” An interview.

Can you tell us about yourself and your background as an artist? 

Salome: “My name is Salome and I am a lens-based artist and writer. I like engaging in a broader practice of curating, editing, and writing - especially collaborating and facilitating interactions. I love exhibitions and (collective) bookmaking.” 

Daria: “I am Daria and I’ve been doing photography since I was 14. I decided to make it my professional and academic pursuit because it was the only thing I imagined myself doing, and I'm glad I did. Since coming to the KABK, I have seen a lot of progress in the way I approach my projects conceptually. Before coming to the Asser Institute, I was able to intern under Amanda Kuipers, an Amsterdam-based fashion photographer whom I admire.” 

Anastasia: “Hi, I’m Anastasia, and I’m 31 years old. Photography has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember - it’s something I fell in love with thanks to my father. Some of my earliest memories are tied to photography: my first steps were captured on Polaroid by my father, and he gave me my first Photoshop lesson.  

However, pursuing art as a career didn’t feel feasible in a time of political and economic instability in my country. So I chose what seemed like a ‘stable’ path and earned a law degree. I worked in various legal roles for six years, but eventually, I decided to return to my passion for photography and art.  

In recent years, I’ve been using photography as both a research and communication tool to explore the role of the individual within global social structures. My practice often combines photography with video, text, and narrative construction through publications. This multi-layered approach allows me to weave together metaphors that examine the intersections of medium, personal identity, cultural heritage, and the socio-political forces that shape our lives.  

I have exhibited my works in collective exhibitions in the Netherlands and at the Arles Photo Festival in France.” 

What drew you to this project? Why do you want to connect international law and art?   
 
Anastasia: “I find art and international law to be not as far apart as one might think. Both are rather removed from the average everyday life, yet they place humanity at their core, as the primary value and motivation for development. International law, like art, is not omnipotent but undoubtedly essential. Like the researchers at the Asser Institute, I question the current state of affairs. However, while the law influences states - vast and unwieldy systems - art ultimately aims at a single recipient: each individual viewer standing before the artwork.” 

Daria: I am very interested in justice, and my desire to connect international law and art stems from a graduation project I am currently working on. That project is about the biggest tragedy in Romania’s recent history, a club fire caused by a fireworks accident which killed 65 people and severely injured over a hundred people. The intricate layers of corruption and incompetence behind it, and the state’s inability to respond efficiently drew me to this collaboration with the Asser Institute. I am fascinated by the legal system that holds states accountable, as well as its transparency (or sometimes lack thereof) towards the general public, and I think art can be a great facilitator for the translation of law into something everyone can relate to.” 

Salome: “I was drawn to this project because of the Asser Institute's work on the public interest - a buzzword that is so hard to define! And an artistic collaboration like this could provide some tangibility to that concept. I like stepping into spheres that are unknown to me and especially to a larger public, in order to make them more accessible. My work is all about facilitating conversations. 

In the past, I already worked with the concept of ‘the commons’, which might also be described as a way to navigate public interests. In general, I am suspicious of current economic logics and therefore big business. I distinctly remember a time when Swiss people like me could vote for- or against a law that would make companies liable for international human rights violations and environmental damages. The Swiss decided to vote against. This made me realise that the relationships between the public and businesses need to be discussed, and that they should be a political concern of the public.“ 

What is your project at the Asser Institute about?   

Salome: “To make the academic research of the Asser Institute more tangible, I opted to investigate the very timely case-study of the investor–state dispute settlement (ISDS) arbitration between ExxonMobil v. the Kingdom of the Netherlands. For decades, the people of Groningen suffered greatly from earthquakes induced by gas fields. Now that the state finally acted upon it, the fossil fuel company sued the Dutch state in October 2024 for compensation in response to the closure of the gas fields. The arbitration will be held in Washington, with the date to be announced. This charge is possible due to the ISDS mechanisms of the Energy Charter Treaty (ECT).  

The arbitration itself might not be a primary concern of Groningers, as they first and foremost need to grapple with the aftermath of the earthquakes. However, these seemingly distant arbitrations do affect people in the Netherlands. Therefore, I want to find ways to decipher the complexities and abstract mechanisms of international law, in order to explain to a general audience what is actually going on behind the glossy facades of arbitration venues and ministries that are visible to the public.” 
 
Daria: “My project stems from my interest in the buildings that represent international law, these carriers of justice that are so present in The Hague’s landscape. As I read more about how the architecture of these courts and tribunals can communicate, I stumbled upon an article by Renske Vos and Sofia Stolk (Asser Institute research fellow) called: ‘Law in concrete: institutional architecture in Brussels and The Hague’. In the piece, the authors wrote about: ‘…concrete materiality as that which makes international law tangible for its audience and constituency,’ which made me want to photograph this tangibility and assess how easy (or difficult) it is for the public to gain access to these international legal institutions.” 
 
Anastasia: “I am exploring the use of consumer drones in modern warfare. I believe this subject represents a crucial intersection where art and international law can complement each other.  

To me, a drone - particularly a small first-person view (FPV) drone - has always been a simple camera. I have used drones extensively for architectural photography, have watched countless travel blogs shot with similar equipment, and hence admired the technology for its accessibility. Drones have even played a key role in groundbreaking investigations of corruption cases, for instance.  

However, after almost three years of the ongoing war in Europe, I mainly see drones being used in a far more troubling way - as tools for remote-controlled killing. While this adaptation of the camera has existed for some time, it has never felt as apparent as it does now. This is why I am so interested in this topic, especially because it currently operates beyond the control of international law. I aim to bridge the gap between the dual use of drones, the imagery they produce, and the reality they depict.”  

Can you give us a sneak peek into your creative process?
   
Anastasia: “I believe working on a photographic project is quite similar to working on a research paper, especially for a project like this. I spend a lot of time reading, discussing topics that interest me, and gathering insights: sometimes I get hyper-focused and end up talking about drones with my mom or even during a date (laughs). I also share my process to get feedback, I watch online footage and artworks for inspiration, and I ultimately create my own photographs and writings.” 
 
Daria: “For me, research is somehow the motor of my recent projects. It inspires me with potential ideas of what I could do. The article by Renske Vos and Sofia Stolk gave me sufficient information about the International Criminal Court (ICC) building in order to approach it. However, even after I start taking photographs, I continue doing research and try to implement it in my project along the way.” 

Salome: “The creative process is a lot of trial-and-error, but it is mostly in conversations with people that I figure out how to proceed. When I start talking and presenting, my brain starts to make sense of things. Usually, I don’t have these cliché ‘artist’s revelations’ in which I suddenly have this amazing idea to work with. I often grapple a lot with what I want to convey, and it is a very bumpy road to a final product. But at a certain point, it will all slowly start making sense, and I can finally articulate what my work is about - and gladly, that already happened for this project! This usually comes with a lot of excitement, because I know that then the production truly starts.” 

What does a day look like when you are working on this project?
  
Salome: “Never the same! I might be reading and researching, or I might be locked up in my room, photographing the screen of my computer to create visuals. Maybe I am visiting someone, or I am filming an interview. Or I am having a conversation with my research supervisor or graphic designer, or I try to figure out how to build the exhibition out of wood. And of course, you might find me having a coffee and exchanging the progress of my project with other people from the Asser Institute.” 

Daria: “It depends. I could either be photographing, editing or sequencing the images, reading or having conversations with the people at the Institute who have helped me immensely in understanding my project. I could also be searching for footage online. So far, I have photographed inside the ICC building and I finished my selection of the five hundred images I had. Right now, I am trying to get access to the International Court of Justice as well.” 

Anastasia: “I would look into the writings of both artists and international law researchers to understand the concept of the remote-controlled gaze, and I will document my process through reflective notes. I also use a Polaroid camera for visual exploration.” 

Since you are interacting with a field different from your own, what has been the most challenging aspect of this project so far?   

Anastasia: “It has been a long time since I graduated from the law department, and I am not used to reading such dense legal texts anymore. It was challenging, and I have to admit that I failed to get through many of these legal texts last month. Honestly, I think that lawyers would benefit from adding a touch of poetry to their writing!” 

Daria: “I think it was a bit challenging in the beginning, especially during my first research strand meeting; because I am not a lawyer or a researcher, I felt like an imposter. Yet, I was happily surprised to see how everyone included us and seemed very interested in what we are working on.” 

Salome: “For sure the terminology. ECT, ISDS, ICSID (International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes), ECS (Energy Charter Secretariat) - it felt like I was drowning in a soup of abbreviations….. Also: what on earth is an arbitration center?! Why do people, or companies rather, not go to a national court? I made baby steps into what was formerly an invisible, or at least very blurry, landscape of law. It is these findings and revelations that I want to share with an audience, to provide some sense of how this abstract landscape of ISDS looks and how it can affect everyone.” 

What has been the most exciting aspect of this project so far?   

Salome: “I love the conversations with my supervisor, researcher Stephanie Triefus; in fact, all the legal researchers I have met are amazingly cool. The Asser Institute is also such a welcoming space! I feel so privileged to have all these resources and expertise at hand. It is wonderful to merge my abilities of creating narratives and approaching complexity with the knowledge of experts. There is a lot of mutual interest and commitment, and I particularly enjoy the trust I receive from the Institute in my working methods.  

A highlight of my journey so far is definitely our field trip to Groningen. It truly provided an insight into the local context, which I think is very important when speaking about such abstract, legal issues.” 

Daria: “As I usually find myself within an artistic bubble, being surrounded by law experts has been really fascinating for me and I have to admit that I hope this experience will last longer.” 

Anastasia: “I have really enjoyed my time at the Asser Institute so far. Each meeting with Carl Emilio Lewis, my supervisor, provided valuable insights - not just for my current project but for my entire practice, which I deeply appreciate. It has been interesting to hear perspectives on my practice from an international law angle.  

Another plus is the facilities where I am developing this project and having access to the online University of Amsterdam library!' 

What can visitors expect at the final exhibition next year? 

Anastasia: “That’s a tough question to answer right now, but what I hope is that visitors will embark on a thought-provoking experience, towards a new way of seeing contemporary weaponry and warfare. My goal is to guide them along a path of reflection, challenging the familiar imagery and inviting them to question how these technologies are used - especially as warfare becomes both more deadly and more ‘playful’ for viewers who safely spectate the war from home.” 

Daria: “The visitors to our exhibition will see a demystified impression of the institutions that represent international law. I hope that my images will spark conversations and trigger a critical perspective on the architecture of international law.” 
 
Salome: “I want to send the audience on a quest to 'find the public interest'. Spoiler: the public interest in the case of the current arbitration between ExxonMobile and the Dutch state is hard to find! The audience will enter a space devoid of humans, and face found footage of highly polished facades of arbitration venues, and of the company and the state involved in this arbitration. The audience will find itself facing complicated data and models of earthquakes as well as heaps of paper. I also want to facilitate interaction with the audience to find out how to constitute the public interest. I want to create a space for participation and exchange, while conveying information about the case and the larger legal framework of ISDS. I think that many people simply have no idea about these mechanisms of international law. My work also speaks of larger issues – power imbalances and the constitution of the public interest, for example. In that sense, I hope that my installation will 
trigger some thinking about the relation of oneself to the public interest and larger institutions. What is the public interest? And who needs to act upon the public interest?”  
 
In 2025, the students’ work will debut in an exhibition in The Hague, accompanied by narratives that connect their art to legal realities. Following the exhibition, the collection will be displayed at the Asser Institute, to continue the conversation on international law’s human impact. 
 
About the Artist in residency programme   
The Artist in residency project, co-organised by the Asser Institute and the Royal Academy of Art The Hague (KABK) draws inspiration from the Asser Institute’s research agenda, ‘Rethinking public interests in International and European Law - Pairing critical reflection with perspectives for action’. The residency seeks to visually communicate the effects of international and European law on citizens and professionals, with the aim of creating a greater understanding and engagement.  

Read more:   
[Interview] Researcher Sofia Stolk: “We should never stop asking questions, and art can be a way to do that”  
Art and international law, it does seem an uneasy combination – international law being strict, rigid, and all about the application of the rules, and art which tends to bend and question those very same rules. But researcher Sofia Stolk thrives in this No man’s land: 'We should look beyond the narrow focus on judgments or the law itself. I think there is an added value in taking seriously different views on justice.' Read more.  

[Just Peace Open Day 2024] ‘Voices from Gaza’ exhibition programme  
On Sunday 22 September 2024, the T.M.C. Asser Instituut, in collaboration with the HOPE Foundation, opened its doors to the public for a powerful exhibition titled 'Voices from Gaza'. This captivating installation sought to bring attention to the experiences of children and young adults living in conflict zones, through artworks by young Palestinians and live performances. Read more.  
 
[Digital art exhibition] Exposure, solidarity, resistance: photographing the daily life of human rights 
Sofia Stolk shared her expertise with first-year photography students at the Royal Academy of Art in The Hague (KABK) for “Exposure, Solidarity, Resistance”. This thought-provoking series of images by artists from the KABK reflects on human rights and highlights the strength, vulnerability and diversity of The Hague’s inhabitants. Visual images are instrumental in defining, explaining, promoting, and contesting human rights. Read more.